Chee Rebuts Single Continuity
Leland Chee of Lucas Licensing has amended some of his earlier statements on canon.
1. Regarding Licensing's continuity database, the "Holocron":
"The database does indeed have a canon field for each individual entry and for sources, though the canon level of the entry would overide the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry."
So in other words, the old shuura fruit example (where the name came from one place and the fruit from the film) would be at the highest level since it came from the film, though the name for it was an EU invention.
2. A number of opponents of the canon took the following to be a declaration on Chee's part that there was no significant difference between G-canon and C-canon:
"Might we discover what the non-obvious G-level elements are, some time after Episode III?
I don't forsee that happening. Sorry. I really wouldn't take too much stock into the difference between G-level and C-level because the lines between the two are so blurred."
This has now been clarified:
"[ADDENDUM: to clarify, I mean blurred to the public. Since we started the Holocron, internally, we are well aware what information is G-level]"
In other words, certain fans can't seem to distinguish G from C, which of course is little wonder since there's an active group trying to dissuade folks from recognition of the fact that Lucas's saga and the EU are not one and the same. Speaking of which:
3. I find this interesting:
"Of the two official continuities (the films alone continuity and the films + EU continuity), is one more 'official' than the other; which is the 'true' Star Wars universe?
You're asking the Keeper of the Holocron, so of course I'm gonna be a bit biased. The "film purists" aren't the types to be hanging out on the boards so it's unlikely you'll hear much official rebuttal around these parts. With that said, the reality is that a huge number of people who have seen all 6 Star Wars films have never played a Star Wars game, visited a Star Wars website, watched a Star Wars television program, read a Star Wars publication, or purchased a Star Wars action figure or collectible. It would be great disservice to discount these people as fans."
That was interesting inasmuch as Chee didn't seem to rebut the notion of two official continuities. A quick googling led me to these forum posts:
User ulic_g99, referring to me:
"Sorry Tasty, a rather long and boring question about continuity, canon and the Holocron…
Much earlier this year, I participated in a debate in the Can We Get "The Canon Argument" Out of the Way Now... thread on this board and had a long discussion with another poster on the canonicity of the EU.
The poster had argued that based on George Lucas’s quotes in Cinescape in July 2002 and in Starlog in August 2005, where he mentions the films and the EU and films being “two separate worlds” and the EU being a “parallel universe”, that there are officially two different Star Wars universes or continuities:
- George Lucas’ Star Wars universe, which is the ‘real’ Star Wars universe, consisting of the 6 Star Wars movies and only those films; the stories set out in the EU do not happen, nor are a part of that universe or story.
- The Expanded Universe’s Star Wars universe, which is not the same as the ‘real’ Star Wars universe, but is it’s own spin-off universe based on it; it does not reflect George Lucas’ vision of the story of what ‘really happens’ in Star Wars.
When I mentioned your statements about the different canonicity levels in Star Wars, he argued that they were only applicable to the EU Star Wars universe, and didn’t apply to George Lucas’ Star Wars universe. Further more he posited that since Lucas Licensing and LucasFilm Ltd are separate entities, that the statements of Lucas Licensing employees do not and cannot override George Lucas’ quotes, or the quotes of LucasFilm Ltd employees, since Lucas Licensing cannot know or comment accurately about the policies of LFL.
I on the other hand argued that there was only one official Star Wars universe or continuity, which is made up of both the Star Wars films and the EU and contains materials of different levels of canonicity as described in your blog. I contended that the quotes of Lucas where he mentions “two worlds” were not supposed to be taken literally; he was describing how his work on the films was ‘his world’ and he didn’t get involved in the EU which was ‘a separate world’.
Additionally, I argued that LucasFilm Ltd and Lucas Licensing, being divisions of the same company, worked together closely and thus each division was aware of and could comment with accuracy on the policies of the other.
I was wondering which of our arguments were correct? Or are we both off the mark in some way? Many thanks!"
Chee responded thusly:
"The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving. It remains elastic until it gets committed to film or another official source. Even then, we know there's always room for change. Though the Holocron is maintained by Licensing, it is utilized by folks throughout all the Lucas companies."
That's "continuities", plural, for those not paying attention. And while Chee suggests that the film continuity is just the films alone, we've heard differently from higher sources. But the point is that even Chee is now admitting that there are two continuities officially recognized . . . the Licensing official continuity, and the Lucas continuity.
In other words, BOOM.
Unsurprisingly, the opponents of the canon have been utterly silent on the matter.
Ulic_g99, however, posted a followup:
"Thanks for answering my question, Tasty! Looks like I was wrong about there only being one Star Wars continuity.
A follow up question - of the two official continuities (the films alone continuity and the films + EU continuity), is one more 'official' than the other; which is the 'true' Star Wars universe? Also, do they share the same history, or are the events of one supposed to be different to the events of the other? For example, the age old question of did Boba Fett die in the Sarlacc pit - in the flims + EU continuity he survives, but in the films alone continuity we don't know if he does or not. Does this mean that it's possible that he died in one Star Wars universe (the films alone), but survived in the other (the films + EU)? Many thanks!"
Chee responded with the quote noted first in this post's point #3. Ulic then asked the following:
"Thanks for such a quick reply Tasty! Last question about canon and continuity, promise...
On this site in August 2001, Steve Sansweet quoted Chris Cerasi about the canon policy. At one point, he mentions:
"The analogy is that every piece of published Star Wars fiction is a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe. Some windows are a bit foggier than others. Some are decidedly abstract. But each contains a nugget of truth to them."
My question is this: with the two different Star Wars continuities of Film alone and Film+EU, is the 'foggy window' of the EU materials as described above referring to a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe of the Film alone continuity, the 'real' Star Wars universe of the Film+EU continuity, or does it mean something else which I'm not understanding properly? I'm assuming that the Holocron is only responsible for managing continuity within the Film+EU universe - is that correct? Many thanks!"
Chee responded to part of the above with the following:
", is the 'foggy window' of the EU materials as described above referring to a window into the 'real' Star Wars universe of the Film alone continuity, the 'real' Star Wars universe of the Film+EU continuity,
Film+EU continuity. Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity."
While Chee's statement can only really be considered his position (since we can't really think of him as rewriting what Cerasi and Sansweet said), it nonetheless follows perfect suit with my view.
That's Game, Set, and Match, folks, once again. I have been maintaining the position that there are two continuities for some time now, obvious as it was from the newer statements of the past few years, and confirmed by the repetitions by Lucas on disparate universes, Sue Rostoni of Licensing who acknowledged such statements, and so on and so forth. Other even harder-core SW fans acknowledged this.
But a small fanatic group resisted this notion, and in the past year or so have abused Leland Chee as their basis, claiming that I've ignored and/or attacked him for disagreeing with their viewpoint and interpretation of Chee, and for having the audacity to explain my own. But now it seems that Chee himself concurs with my position, at least in the broadest strokes.
So really, what's left for them to hang on to except their own fanaticism?
I suppose it's all they ever had.
posted by Author @ 23:21
21 Comments:
Not that it will really change anything. They're sure to still try and claim that the Films + EU continuity is canon. But at the very least, at least this gives more weight towards Lucas' "parallel universe" statement.
Well, the problem is that they can't really do that now.
What they have to have is someone . . . anyone . . . suggesting that the EU is canon and rejecting the dual-canon idea. Lucas's declarations of the dual-canon idea weren't enough for them, so they ignored and reimagined him 'cause others weren't explicitly towing the line. That's why they adhered to Chee . . . because he said things closer to what they wanted to hear (or which could be heard that way).
But now everybody's following the same line quite explicitly. All the big players . . . Lucas, Rostoni, Chee . . . are in the game and explicitly on the same team. There is, therefore, simply no way I can see for these folks to maintain any semblance of official backing.
All they can hope to do is find some random author or lowly editor who gets suckered with a question and responds along the lines of "I never heard that". The fact that they wouldn't have been expected to will be found irrelevant, and it will be hailed as a grand disproof of the dual-canon idea by the EU Completists.
Hence my rank-based schema, where such illogic doesn't fly. And that's why for my uses, I'll go with the big man's canon every time.
I'm sure the argument will never be over . . . it's human nature (especially theirs) to reject what they do not want to hear. But now that everyone of interest is hammering nails to seal the casket for their argument, maybe at least they'll stop threatening and harassing those who disagree on the matter.
But don't you get the feeling that they'll be quick to point to Chee's statement of "Though the Holocron is maintained by Licensing, it is utilized by folks throughout all the Lucas companies." combined with the fact that the Holocron maintains a canon policy based on "the combined current version of the films along with whatever else [they've] got in the Holocron.", along with statement from Chee that Lucasfilm doesn't even have their own canon policy?
There's still the sansweet quote of what's closer to the movies in the EU is more accurate, which will be used for the Saxton made ICSs.
1. What do we care if LucasArts guys use the Licensing database? Lucas doesn't. As Chee said previously, if Lucas wants something from the EU he'll ask somebody, and if that somebody knows somebody who happens to know about the Holocron then Lucas might get something from it fourth-hand, but that's not the same thing.
2. Licensing maintaining a continuity based on the films plus the EU doesn't really mean anything in combo with anything else. We already knew they had their own. Rostoni acknowledged that Lucas had his own. This is just a very explicit statement on the part of Chee that confirms to us that he knows Lucas has his own.
3. Chee once said there was no canon policy outside of Lucas Licensing, and that he didn't even know what it would mean. However, he just identified a second official continuity, one dictated by Lucas. And we know Lucas's stance on things from his oft-quoted statements.
Short of Lucas distributing a memo entitled "THIS IS MY CANON POLICY" I don't see how it gets more explicit.
You continue to underestimate the deapths that can be dug.
The nice thing is that the "though the canon level of the entry would overide the canon level of the source since it factors in other sources associated with that entry." statement helps put to rest the old argument about how Chee's statement that "Similarly, any "C" canon item that makes it into the films can become "G" canon." somehow meant that because part of the AOTC ICS made it into the film, that made the whole thing "G" canon.
You continue to underestimate the deapths that can be dug.
GStone, you most assuredly speak the truth!
There are some questions that can be asked, as a preemptive strike. Off the top of my head, there's asking Rostoni if any changes to preexisting entries in the new ICS compilation override the ones found in the individual ICSs. Asking Sansweet or Cerasi about how they feel about the window into real Wars. Though Chee himself backs up 2 'verses, they may revert to Sansweet in a better position and Cerasi because he was quoted by Sansweet. There is also asking a number of people how newer quotes should be related to older ones. Do they override or something else.
There's still the sansweet quote of what's closer to the movies in the EU is more accurate, which will be used for the Saxton made ICSs.
Well, I always loved this statement. By definition, anything that comes from the films is canon. So then, any bit stripped off from these films and put into other sources still remain canon. But not the new content that holds a copy of this information, nor the added surrounding information.
That's why the expanded stuff always remain, by defition, expanded material built upon the canon basis.
For example, you grab a canon item from the film, say a ship whihc has no name. The EU gives it a name. The name's EU, the ship, the entity as a whole, is canon.
That's why an ICS looks like it's more canon, but it is not. It only contains MORE canon material than some other sources, but anything added that doesn't come from the films is not benefiting from this canon aura.
So even if you're supporting the whole EU+films policy, there's nothing that actually says that the 200 gigaton figure, for example, is more canonical than an event in one of the official EU fictions that supports a completely different kind of firepower.
I'd even go as far as to say that the ICS, a guide among others, must follow the fictions, because that's what Star Wars is all about: stories. It's not about guides and rulebooks.
Now, arguably, they could still say that there are now two official canons. I actually fail to see Chee saying which one is superior to the other. It could even be that they're equal, because even in the EU friendly canon, the EU is (was) still bound to the changes that occur(ed) in the films.
Now, obviously, one would think that Lucas' continuity holds higher grounds. But actually, the acknowledgement of two different official continuities could actually put this whole canon debate to rest, at least as far as mentally straight people are concerned, as it will just become a matter of which official continuity you abide by.
Everybody's happy. Right?
And crap, more typos going on. :D
Merry Christmas btw!
Mostly, it is that simple. Unfortunately, there are some that have the need to trounce others, whether they are right or not and are unable to admit when they're wrong. Though, it is fortunate because there is just a bizare feeling of how it continues to keep going. It's the car wreck syndrome.
Ulic is at it again.
http://forums.starwars.com/thread.jspa?threadID=152583&start=1125
"...since both continuities are bound by the films, surely they’re almost exactly the same with the only difference between them being that one has no extra details outside of the films, and the other does? Since any additional details created in the Film Only universe (like the upcoming Star Wars TV series by George Lucas) automatically carry across into the Films + EU universe as G-canon, does that mean there will never be any actual deviation between the two??..."
I remember when I debated him on this topic and...I'm gonna give him the benefit of the doubt and say he's just in denial mode.
Well, I don't know who Ulic is, but if he's not an SDN regular then he's definitely been drinking the same kool-aid.
What this means is that he's been in denial mode for a long time. Note how he's trying to sidestep the fact that Chee's statement reaffirms the higher statements of Lucas on separate, parallel universes and whatnot. The "no deviation" line and the question on differences of detail mean he's hoping Chee will say that everything is the same in between the two, but that in the film continuity you just don't mention the EU stuff, as if somehow that makes everything okay.
It was shock alone that would get one of them to say "Looks like I was wrong about there only being one Star Wars continuity" . . . the new bit from him you quote above is his actual response.
I don't know if he is a member, but Wong's got a couple thousand for his board, so he might. Even if he isn't, he tries to be nice about it, but he's just putting up a nicer front than the rest who are having a problem with the idea.
But, now, we have this choice piece from Chee:
Ulic:And what goes in the blank timeline spaces of the Film Only universe - can we never know the history or background of that Star Wars universe like we can in the EU Star Wars universe?
Chee: Nothing. That's why it's film only.
So, not one bit of EU exists in the film only universe because it is not film+EU. This makes perfect sense and only someone retarded would think that that wasn't a stupid question...that there would be EU in a clearly marked films only universe.
Can I get a bloody hell?!
After reading his entire response, Chee also says this:
unknown poster: Does this mean that if a C-canon source contains a little snippet of canon-contradictory information, this little snippet is simply disregarded from the entry detailing the topic in question?
Chee: Correct as the other posters have said, and the contradiction is noted in the Continuity Notes.
So, he backs up the Sansweet/Cerasi quote. Nice. Even though the question is in reference to the holocron, it still deals with the heirarchy. I wanna see someone saying Sansweet/Cerasi overrides Chee on their side.
After thinking some more on it, I think the best any of them would try to go with now is saying there's more to Star Wars than just the movies.
Well, here come some responses:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?t=102815
"Mange" (aka "Mange the Swede") posted the quotes, simply noting:
"posted this as I thought this contradicted (or could be used as seen to do it and has been used that way) Chee's earlier statement regarding continuity"
SDN poster Jim Raynor, who engaged in a four month Wiki-war at Wikipedia to get anything written by me stricken from the links list of the Star Wars canon page, said:
"This is new, but Chee explicitly isn't saying that the films are the only canon. Only that there are now two separate, but BOTH official continuities: film only, and film + EU. He doesn't explicitly say which one is "superior," although he does still imply that it's film + EU . But I bet Darkstar and other movie purists would absolutely masturbate over all of this if they saw these new posts.
You're right, this does contradict what he said earlier about there being one overall continuity."
So we see here the seed of a potential line of argument . . . that Chee's "Film + EU" canon is somehow "superior". I'm sure they'll be sure to ask Lucas that question . . . aren't you? After all, it's his continuity that they're suggesting might be inferior.
And of course, since I'm not a movie purist I utterly failed to touch myself as he predicted, though given how nuts he went at Wikipedia I wouldn't be surprised if he touched himself over the subject previously. He is, in any case, a bit touched. Besides, given how long it took them to finally bring the quotes up at SDN and admit that it doesn't look good at all for them (the "Hide and Eek" approach), I'd have needed a vast supply of Viagra.
Vympel noted:
" there is still precisely no valid reason for "movie purists" to argue that the EU is not canon, and there never will be so long as LFL exists and makes money off its creations :) "
I concur completely, and say as much on my canon page. Both movie purists and EU Completists are wrong.
The dual-canon idea is the way to go. Lucas leads us that way, Rostoni agress, and even Chee's tagging along now. Nathan Butler and I were the first verbose Star Wars fans to suggest that we and the rest of the hoi polloi ought to follow along, but some just don't want to come.
Indeed, I think I'll try prodding them. Look for a new post on ST-v-SW.Net's blog at weblog.st-v-sw.net.
See, I just *knew* I was right :) Yay! But the diehard ASVS Warsies will never give up, that's for sure. They'll find some "clever" way to weasel out and assert that they are right and nothing can change their mind. Not even the most solid evidence in the world is enough to budge them. Nothing can budge someone who does not wish to be budged.
Oh yeah . . . I'd been forgetting to see if there were any comments at ASVS.
Then I checked. Nope. Place is dead.
'Course they're not going to say anything about the quote. It is so damning. The only thing they can do is just put the fingers in their ears and scream "LALALALA" and their favorite "YOU'RE STUPID!" really loudly.
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